Bruce thinks I'm stupid enough to go blabbering family secrets even though I've kept it under wraps for literally most of my conscious life because now I apparently think with my dick.
I need an impartial opinion and I know you won't take his side just because you're fucking so if I come over, will there be chocolate chip cookies waiting for me or do I need to get something on the way there?
[He does want to stop to get... something for Clark. He isn't sure what. Maybe a good beer, he seems to drink those. But even Jason isn't enough of a jerk to barge in for advice and not being anything.]
It takes Jason exactly 30 minutes to be knocking on Clark's door. It feels weird to do so: Clark knows he's there, he must have heard him. He must be able to see who's on the other side of the door by just looking.
And within about a minute, the door is being opened by a Clark who gestures expansively with one arm for Jason to walk in and holds up a small plate with cookies on it in the other. It's clear Jason is welcome to take the plate and walk in.
"Glad you could make it by. How have things been for you?"
Jason hands him a 6-pack of the nicest beer he found around, but he does indeed grab the plate after that. He figured he owed him after smashing the beer and leaving him to clean it up first time they met.
"Okay, fine, super, whatever. Can we just cut to the chase?"
He takes the beer, though to be honest, he mostly keeps it around for cooking, the occasional beer bread, and other people. Mostly. Sometimes he feels like having one, and this stuff is at least nice enough.
Soon, he's pulling back, closing the door behind Jason, and making his way back into the kitchen to put the beer in the 'fridge.
"Go ahead," he tells him with a wave of a gesture, "this is your show, after all."
"The first thing I'm going to note is that whether it was through you or some other manner, Loki did in fact know you'd been dead. He mentioned it specifically." He settled back against the kitchen counter. "He had a decent amount of information about me and he'd clearly put together some things about Bruce. Which may have nothing to do with you.
"Apparently, Dick and someone else from Gotham were here previously. Came and went."
"I know he knew. He knew about the pits as well, he knew... a lot of things he wasn't supposed to. But I only told him I had been badly hurt. I said offhandedly that my memories were blurry so he figured it'd had to be bad to mess up my brain. Guess it wasn't hard to connect the dots.
He'll back off now. He knows if he doesn't, it's over. And I know I threw you under the bus there. I knew he got most of it from Twin- and I didn't know he'd talked to Golden boy at the time. But I am fucking pissed he'd assume I'd babbled just because I'm fucking him."
Clark looked up from what he was doing with the tray of food that was getting pulled out of the oven. It strikes him that perhaps, perhaps there's something being missed here. There's usually something being missed when it comes to most people's perceptions of Bruce.
"...you do realize he wouldn't deal with you at all if he thought you were completely incompetent, don't you?" He put the food down on the counter. "He's terrible at admitting when he's worried for people, so he tries to browbeat them into being less worrying."
He goes to the 'fridge and pulls out one of the beers that Jason had brought, blowing a layer of frost onto the bottle absently.
"When he gets emphatic like that... it's not about how much of a screw up he thinks you are. It's about how concerned he is."
He pops open the top and takes a long pull, holding up a hand in the meantime. When he's swallowed--
"Take it from me. Who do you think gets called a reckless idiot more than anyone?"
That's actually a very good point. Jason had seen, from the very beginning,
just how deeply Bruce felt about Clark. He didn't know if he was in love,
but Bruce sure as he'll loved the Kryptonian more than he probably
realized. Friends love each other, as well.
And yet he acted like Clark was a ticking bomb ready to go off.
"He'd never have accused Dick. Or Tim." But even Jason knows that's weak
denial at best and a lie at worst.
That just gets a raise of an eyebrow. Because he's well aware that they're both well aware how stupid that sounds. But after a moment, he tilts his head.
"Maybe not Tim," he grants with a frown. "But you, me, and Dick?" That comes with a snort. "Absolutely.
He lets some of the levity slip out of him then, considering how to put what he wants to say. That's why his voice is gentle when he speaks again.
"Next time you talk, if you talk, every time he says something that sounds like 'you're reckless' or 'you're foolish' or 'you're screwing up', replace it with 'you could get hurt'. You'll be amazed how different the rest of it sounds in context."
He doesn't like that idea. Not because Clark is wrong, but because he shouldn't be jumping through fucking loops to have a conversation with Bruce, especially when all he wanted was to help Twin. Once again, he realizes that last statement isn't exactly... true.
"I was actually-" 'hurt', he thinks. But he can't say it, not out loud. So he gives Clark a look that he hopes he will understand. He communicates with Bruce, he should be fluent in silences. "I don't know. I actually wanted his opinion on something other than 'you fucked up he knew too much'."
Clark doesn't defend Bruce there; for one thing, it's not his place. For another, he knows how damn difficult and hurtful the man can be. He didn't exactly get to where he is now, the understanding he had now, without a few 'scars'. Just because he understands him, that doesn't mean he thinks everyone can handle it. Or wants to.
"He can be a bit singleminded. You're not wrong. But I do think, from the talks that I've had with your double, that he's not wrong about the approach. I've seen the Arkham Knight be sane, rational... even empathetic. But the second anything related to Bruce or Batman enters the discussion, he gets completely irrational."
"That's me too! I fully admit I'm not rational wherever he's involved. Him or anyone in their little clan, really. But how is pushing him away going to change that?
"No, Jason," and he's trying to be gentle again, "you're emotionally compromised. But you can recognize it. You know and acknowledge it and actively question your responses because of that." He shakes his head. "The Arkham Knight is on an entirely different level in that respect. And part of that is, I believe, because he lacks identity of his own. He needs to figure out who he is outside of Bruce. Apart from Bruce. Get some friends, get a hobby, do something beside obsess. If the only thing he's working from is his solidarity or antagonism with Bruce, there's no room for him to grow or heal."
He sighs.
"I'm not saying Bruce won't be involved. No one's abandoning him. I've been talking to him consistently since I got here, offering him an open door, offering him open arms. I don't want him alone. But the violence of his reaction to Bruce just isn't helpful to anyone."
He tries to go for gentle, again. Tries being the keyword, he's not good at it and he's already on edge. He knows that logically, if everyone agrees he's wrong then he must be. But all he sees, all he processes is Twin being kept from the one thing that could make him better.
"Bruce in my world ignored me as well. And when he died I was so out of my mind I almost killed a 10 year old just to make Dick suffer because I am the only one good enough to wear the cowl. And I've had years of this, years where I should have healed and it's unfair that neither of us is going to get a chance at that."
"I know he doesn't want me," Clark answers, and it's clear he's... well, Jason's not the only one strained on this point. "But you're over-identifying. You're trying to fix him the way you think you could have fixed yourself, and you're ignoring the parts that don't overlap."
He holds up a finger, counting off.
"You do not believe, nor want, Bruce to be partially the Joker. You would never have hurt Barbara to try and kill him. You might have 'almost' killed a 10 year old" and he doesn't know enough there, wishes he did, "but you didn't actually help fill Gotham City with tanks and fear gas."
But god, the things Jason is saying... It reminds him of nothing so much as Lex Luthor, screaming at him, shouting about all the good he would have done, all the ways the world had been better without Superman. How he could have saved the world if only-- as if Clark had ever stood in his way.
Clark was an excuse. And it was becoming clearer and clearer to him that even for this Jason, Bruce was an excuse.
"And this goes for both of you: if you want to heal, if you're serious about it, then your first step would be looking into therapy. Not waiting for Bruce Wayne to fix everything and figure out how human interaction works in a non-procedural fashion."
That's like a physical blow, and Jason takes a step back. Clark's totally right: Bruce is his excuse, but he was also his father. The only father he ever really known. And there's a reason he reacted so badly to his death.
"...He told me that. When he died, he left me a message. Called me his greatest failure. Told me to seek therapy.
Do you have any idea how much it hurt to hear your dead father say that?"
He looks carefully at Jason now, just watching him for a moment. He's heard this Bruce talk about Jason... and he'd certainly heard the one back home say plenty on the subject. Or NOT say it, as the case usually is. But Bruce has a very distinct way about silences, after all. Words are not always a direct translation when it comes to speaking Bruce Wayne.
Which is why he's clearly confused why Jason might be upset with Bruce for that. Until the words reconnect in his head differently.
Dammit, Bruce.
"And you thought he was calling you a failure? That you'd failed?"
His jaw clenches. His knuckles are white, nails digging into his skin
inside his fist.
"I know he did. And I am. I'm the black sheep, I'm the kid in the story
they tell the little robins when they grow up. Please, please don't be like
Jason Todd or the big bad Joker will get you.
Clark stares at him for a moment and he actually can't help but drag his hands over his face, scrub at his eyes and breathing deep before breathing out.
"Jason. Jason, no. God no. That wasn't what he meant at all. Not at all."
Dammit, Bruce.
"He wasn't calling you a failure. He wasn't saying you had failed. He was apologizing. He was telling you that he had failed you. That's why he wanted you to seek help.
"Because he had done so much damage with his mistakes."
Dammit dammit dammit.
"The Bruce at home. This Bruce. They've both said this to me. They called you a 'good soldier'. They said they'd failed you. That you deserved better. Jason, didn't it ever occur to you that if he thought you were such a failure, he wouldn't care enough to tell you to seek help? It doesn't make sense. And it doesn't make sense because I swear, I swear on the memory of Krypton, Jason:
He can't breathe, he really can't. Suddenly Jason's eyes aren't green anymore, suddenly they shine in a completely different light. All he sees is red and danger and how does he beat Clark? How can he kill him? He's invulnerable he's dangerous he's hurting Jason and it has to stop maybe his eyes are vulnerable maybe his ears he doesn't have any weapon nearby wait there's knives he sees knives he sees a window break it get the glass slice his neck there's a spoon go for his eyes get the beer break the bottle stab his arm with it get rid of him stab main kill hurt get rid of the pain-
“STOP.”
Is he telling Clark, or himself? He isn't sure. His entire world is spinning and every single one of Clark's words hurt deep in his soul. If Clark is right, and Superman usually is in Jason's opinion, then the problem isn't Bruce. The problem is him.
“Stop, okay? I can't. Talk with you about it, I really can't. Can we focus on Twin? Tell me how to help him. Tell me what to do.”
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
text; private
I need an impartial opinion and I know you won't take his side just because you're fucking so if I come over, will there be chocolate chip cookies waiting for me or do I need to get something on the way there?
text; private
And I'm happy to play sounding board. Head over whenever you have the time.
text; private
i'm my way now will be there in 30 min
[He does want to stop to get... something for Clark. He isn't sure what. Maybe a good beer, he seems to drink those. But even Jason isn't enough of a jerk to barge in for advice and not being anything.]
text; private
action;
And yet there's Jason, acting all mundane.
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"Glad you could make it by. How have things been for you?"
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"Okay, fine, super, whatever. Can we just cut to the chase?"
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Soon, he's pulling back, closing the door behind Jason, and making his way back into the kitchen to put the beer in the 'fridge.
"Go ahead," he tells him with a wave of a gesture, "this is your show, after all."
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"Okay. I need you to listen to this, and tell me what you think."
And he pulls out a recorded conversation for Clark to listen to. No edits, no cuts, the talk is just as it is.
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"The first thing I'm going to note is that whether it was through you or some other manner, Loki did in fact know you'd been dead. He mentioned it specifically." He settled back against the kitchen counter. "He had a decent amount of information about me and he'd clearly put together some things about Bruce. Which may have nothing to do with you.
"Apparently, Dick and someone else from Gotham were here previously. Came and went."
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"I know he knew. He knew about the pits as well, he knew... a lot of things he wasn't supposed to. But I only told him I had been badly hurt. I said offhandedly that my memories were blurry so he figured it'd had to be bad to mess up my brain. Guess it wasn't hard to connect the dots.
He'll back off now. He knows if he doesn't, it's over. And I know I threw you under the bus there. I knew he got most of it from Twin- and I didn't know he'd talked to Golden boy at the time. But I am fucking pissed he'd assume I'd babbled just because I'm fucking him."
no subject
"...you do realize he wouldn't deal with you at all if he thought you were completely incompetent, don't you?" He put the food down on the counter. "He's terrible at admitting when he's worried for people, so he tries to browbeat them into being less worrying."
He goes to the 'fridge and pulls out one of the beers that Jason had brought, blowing a layer of frost onto the bottle absently.
"When he gets emphatic like that... it's not about how much of a screw up he thinks you are. It's about how concerned he is."
He pops open the top and takes a long pull, holding up a hand in the meantime. When he's swallowed--
"Take it from me. Who do you think gets called a reckless idiot more than anyone?"
no subject
Jason opens his mouth...then closes it.
That's actually a very good point. Jason had seen, from the very beginning, just how deeply Bruce felt about Clark. He didn't know if he was in love, but Bruce sure as he'll loved the Kryptonian more than he probably realized. Friends love each other, as well.
And yet he acted like Clark was a ticking bomb ready to go off.
"He'd never have accused Dick. Or Tim." But even Jason knows that's weak denial at best and a lie at worst.
no subject
"Maybe not Tim," he grants with a frown. "But you, me, and Dick?" That comes with a snort. "Absolutely.
He lets some of the levity slip out of him then, considering how to put what he wants to say. That's why his voice is gentle when he speaks again.
"Next time you talk, if you talk, every time he says something that sounds like 'you're reckless' or 'you're foolish' or 'you're screwing up', replace it with 'you could get hurt'. You'll be amazed how different the rest of it sounds in context."
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"I was actually-" 'hurt', he thinks. But he can't say it, not out loud. So he gives Clark a look that he hopes he will understand. He communicates with Bruce, he should be fluent in silences. "I don't know. I actually wanted his opinion on something other than 'you fucked up he knew too much'."
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"He can be a bit singleminded. You're not wrong. But I do think, from the talks that I've had with your double, that he's not wrong about the approach. I've seen the Arkham Knight be sane, rational... even empathetic. But the second anything related to Bruce or Batman enters the discussion, he gets completely irrational."
He holds up his hands.
"That's just my opinion, though."
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"That's me too! I fully admit I'm not rational wherever he's involved. Him or anyone in their little clan, really. But how is pushing him away going to change that?
It's going to make it worse."
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"No, Jason," and he's trying to be gentle again, "you're emotionally compromised. But you can recognize it. You know and acknowledge it and actively question your responses because of that." He shakes his head. "The Arkham Knight is on an entirely different level in that respect. And part of that is, I believe, because he lacks identity of his own. He needs to figure out who he is outside of Bruce. Apart from Bruce. Get some friends, get a hobby, do something beside obsess. If the only thing he's working from is his solidarity or antagonism with Bruce, there's no room for him to grow or heal."
He sighs.
"I'm not saying Bruce won't be involved. No one's abandoning him. I've been talking to him consistently since I got here, offering him an open door, offering him open arms. I don't want him alone. But the violence of his reaction to Bruce just isn't helpful to anyone."
no subject
He tries to go for gentle, again. Tries being the keyword, he's not good at it and he's already on edge. He knows that logically, if everyone agrees he's wrong then he must be. But all he sees, all he processes is Twin being kept from the one thing that could make him better.
"Bruce in my world ignored me as well. And when he died I was so out of my mind I almost killed a 10 year old just to make Dick suffer because I am the only one good enough to wear the cowl. And I've had years of this, years where I should have healed and it's unfair that neither of us is going to get a chance at that."
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He holds up a finger, counting off.
"You do not believe, nor want, Bruce to be partially the Joker. You would never have hurt Barbara to try and kill him. You might have 'almost' killed a 10 year old" and he doesn't know enough there, wishes he did, "but you didn't actually help fill Gotham City with tanks and fear gas."
But god, the things Jason is saying... It reminds him of nothing so much as Lex Luthor, screaming at him, shouting about all the good he would have done, all the ways the world had been better without Superman. How he could have saved the world if only-- as if Clark had ever stood in his way.
Clark was an excuse. And it was becoming clearer and clearer to him that even for this Jason, Bruce was an excuse.
"And this goes for both of you: if you want to heal, if you're serious about it, then your first step would be looking into therapy. Not waiting for Bruce Wayne to fix everything and figure out how human interaction works in a non-procedural fashion."
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"...He told me that. When he died, he left me a message. Called me his greatest failure. Told me to seek therapy.
Do you have any idea how much it hurt to hear your dead father say that?"
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Which is why he's clearly confused why Jason might be upset with Bruce for that. Until the words reconnect in his head differently.
Dammit, Bruce.
"And you thought he was calling you a failure? That you'd failed?"
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His jaw clenches. His knuckles are white, nails digging into his skin inside his fist.
"I know he did. And I am. I'm the black sheep, I'm the kid in the story they tell the little robins when they grow up. Please, please don't be like Jason Todd or the big bad Joker will get you.
I can't let Twin go through that too. I won't."
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"Jason. Jason, no. God no. That wasn't what he meant at all. Not at all."
Dammit, Bruce.
"He wasn't calling you a failure. He wasn't saying you had failed. He was apologizing. He was telling you that he had failed you. That's why he wanted you to seek help.
"Because he had done so much damage with his mistakes."
Dammit dammit dammit.
"The Bruce at home. This Bruce. They've both said this to me. They called you a 'good soldier'. They said they'd failed you. That you deserved better. Jason, didn't it ever occur to you that if he thought you were such a failure, he wouldn't care enough to tell you to seek help? It doesn't make sense. And it doesn't make sense because I swear, I swear on the memory of Krypton, Jason:
"He never thought you were the failure. Never."
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“STOP.”
Is he telling Clark, or himself? He isn't sure. His entire world is spinning and every single one of Clark's words hurt deep in his soul. If Clark is right, and Superman usually is in Jason's opinion, then the problem isn't Bruce. The problem is him.
“Stop, okay? I can't. Talk with you about it, I really can't. Can we focus on Twin? Tell me how to help him. Tell me what to do.”
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